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Page créée avec « 1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,600 Avant-Cercle du facilitateur avec Duke Pratique des Cercles Restauratifs avec Dominic Barter 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:09,440 At some point... »
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Avant-Cercle du facilitateur avec Duke
Pratique des Cercles Restauratifs avec Dominic Barter
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At some point in the pre circle I just
check in with Duke: "How's it going ?"
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Duke says "it's fine" and I say:
- "Would you like some support?" - "No I'm good"
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And I don't believe him.
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- Smart.
- Yeah.
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So I just keep on hassling him a little bit
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and I find ways to invite him to sit down with me
and I might do facilitator pre circle
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standing up at the water cooler.
I might do it in the corridor.
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I don't necessarily need the same kind of formality
that I might prefer
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if I was receiving people who'd initiated
a restorative process because they have a conflict
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that they want to see happen in
in a restorative circle.
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This might be something that we might do in the car
driving home or like I said on the phone.
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What's important for me is I want
to remember that the facilitator
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is fundamentally a member of the community.
There are not four specific roles in the circle.
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There are three: author or authors,
receiver or receivers, and the conflict community.
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And Duke is part of the
conflict community.
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And it's in that capacity that we're meeting.
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- So how's it going to you?
- Fine.
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I'm wondering what's coming up for you
around the circle, the restorative process
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that you're working with at the moment?
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I'm noticing I have a hell of lot of stories
and hopelessness
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around the author being willing to participate.
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Because in in this situation
as in all conflicts
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but it's very clear that the person who initiated
also was the author
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although the way the event was described
that person is a receiver.
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So when you look at the act
you're looking at them as a receiver
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but when you look inside,
you're moved,
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stimulated by the things that they did.
Is that right?
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Yeah. That it has… I lack of a better term…
equal weight
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to whatever they're saying
this other person did.
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And so when the act is framed in that way
I'm telling myself that the other person
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is never gonna want to participate
given the act framed in this way.
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- Yeah.
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And what is that idea
that you have about that act ?
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And what is the image that you form about the person
or about the act itself when you look at it?
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Is there a way to pinpoint something that kind of
that serves as a gateway for emotionally
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what's moving you in relation to this?
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I'm not sure what you mean?
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I'm wondering if, when you look at the act,
if you see it in a certain way
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or when you look at that person
you see them in a certain way
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and there's a way to sum that up.
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Closed.
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- That's how I see that person.
- Right.
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So in pre circle land, that's the act.
It's Duke's act it's the way he's seeing things
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it's that singular doorway through which
we're gonna, I'm gonna focus.
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Because he said there are lots of things happening
but then there's that word "closed".
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And for now that's enough specificity
I don't need anything more
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I just wanted that as an anchor
I'll probably just spend the rest of the time
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hanging out with him.
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And is that scary to look at that person
and see them in that way?
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Well there's a hopelessness in it, you know
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because I have all dreams and visions
of how this process could help
and support them connect differently
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and see each other differently
and then I'm telling myself
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it's never gonna get off the ground
because they're gonna say:
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"Forget it. I'm not interested."
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Yeah.
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And there's sadness at me because
I'm wanting to trust
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the process and presence
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and also to be open to the fact that
maybe in this situation the circle isn't
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the method or whatever
the way that we're going to move forward
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so that does start to create
some more openness in me
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so it's that I'm seeing because
I've experienced and seen potential
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and have dreams of even greater potential
of this process that
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I'm wanting it to work for everybody
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and so I'm seeing how I've closed down
on the possibility that
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in this particular case it's okay
whether they say yes or no.
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So "closed" was a good word
Since I was the one who's closed.
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that definitely gives me
way more spaciousness
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in going into meeting
with that person
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and more aliveness or excitement
about the possibility
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Because now whatever happen is okay.
It's just what it is.
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Yeah.
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And as you look at the next steps that
you're going to take is there anything
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that comes up around there
that you can imagine receiving support for?
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Well one thing is coming to mind
is just sharing this with my co-facilitator
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this experience even just now oh yeah
I'm talking to this checking in with her about it
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and stuff and seeing where
she's at about this
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both sharing my experience but then also
seeing where she's at doing the same
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that you're doing for me with her
I would do for her
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- exchanging it yeah for the both of you
- yeah yeah
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Is there a kind of obvious moment
when you might do that?
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Yeah we're meeting next week:
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we had talked about meeting a little
earlier ahead of the next pre circle
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I want to reinforce that and make sure
that that does happen
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yeah
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- That's all that's coming to mind
- Cool
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- Thanks
- All right thank you.
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Wow that was hard work!
[Laughs]
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I'm joking about
how little is necessary to be able
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to support someone in terms of,
you know, words or thinking.
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…
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So you knew it wouldn't work here
because everyone knows
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If you break it down, it does look,
I wonder if you were able to track it,
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it does look pretty much like a pre circle
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there's a particular point of entry
there's the listening as you look forward
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to the processes or any other things
that you think might come up for you
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is going over the process
like we do with the participants
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I didn't need to ask who might be able
to support you with that piece
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that might come up in the future
because he already answered that question
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but if he hadn't, if he'd said: "yeah, it's not
such a big deal but I'm kind of nervous
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about what's going to happen with the
other pre circle after I'm with the author"
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Then I would have said:
"So is there anyone around who might be able
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to support you with that?"
Which is the equivalent of: "who else needs to be there?"
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I'm checking in with the folks
and then, you know, "are we done?"
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"Is that okay?" as a way of saying:
"are we ready to move on?"
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So that is still my guide
but I'm not particularly worried about the questions
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as specific ways to manifest it
I just have that as a guide in my head.
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those are the pieces that I more or less
want to make sure that we cover.
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In a situation in which someone is giving me
a far more verbally explicit description
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of what the other person has done wrong
or what they themselves are lacking
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in order to be able to facilitate
or what a terrible situation, one unresolvable dilemma,
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there being presented within the circle,
then one of the things that I'll do,
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is I'll more specifically verbalize to them
the way in which I'm hearing them speak
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because I want to check with them
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if I'm really hearing them accurately
because the distance between
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the words they're using
and the dictionary meaning of those words
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and the meaning that I'm receiving is greater
than it was just now.
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Duke's way of expressing himself was pretty close
to what I was hearing.
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But when someone says: "Oh, god, another pre circle today!
It's the same bloody family again!
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They never learn! Complete disaster,
I don't know why I bother."
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There's a larger gap between
the dictionary meaning of the words they're using
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and what it is that I'm hearing.
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Do you use your NVC translation skills
to put that in termes of feelings and needs?
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All the time as a facilitator
I'm tracking meaning.
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That's my primary activity.
It's to track meaning.
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So in this case I'm listening to that meaning arrive.
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I get the wrapping
but what I'm really interested in, is the present inside
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so the words are the wrapping
the concepts are the wrapping
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but what's inside if that makes sense to you,
we can describe in terms of needs that are universal
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if that doesn't make sense to you
you describe it in other terms.
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Most of the people I work with don't have NVC
as a reference point
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they have Christianity or they have
something else.
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So they'll find a different way
to describe exactly the same thing
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as far as I can see, works just as well.
NVC is just my particular doorway in.
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So I'll find a way to verbalize what I'm hearing
so that I can check with them if my hearing is accurate.
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Does anyone else
got any comments or observations
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that they'd like to share about
what they saw just now with me and Duke?
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I was really appreciating the quality of listening
and I remember how effective it was
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one of the times, I received that kind of listening support
and I asked actively for it, in every case.
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And one time when I couldn't find it
how I walked into the RC was completely different.
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Yeah.
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I didn't get it the other day, it's about three weeks now,
I got a phone call late at night from a judge saying:
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"I've just been rung by the secretary of Education"
of the state in which he lives.
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A student has just stabbed another student in a school
and they want you to be there by the morning."
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So I packed my bag,
woke up at 5:00, flew there,
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then drove quite a long way inland
to get to this small city
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and 10 hours of pre-circle
just one after the other
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and for the next morning, ready for the first circle
and I was just leaving the place that I'd slept in
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to get ready for the day, when I realized
that I hadn't checked in with anybody
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because it was just one after the other
one after the other
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to get into the prison to be able
to meet with the young man
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who'd stabbed his colleague was complicated
the judge didn't want to allow it he was on holiday…
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you know, there were things that would…
hoops that we needed to jump through
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and then when I got there and found out
that he hadn't seen his parents for a week
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I was the first person who'd spoken to him
then I was like emotionally impacted as well
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and while all these things were going on
and very little sleep, I forgot to do that.
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But someone had driven me there
and luckily that person had participated
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in a training a couple of years earlier
so I kind of grabbed her over breakfast
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and I said: "Could you…
just five minutes could we spend?
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You know, even if we're late,
I'd spent five minutes together,
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I'd just like to tell you what's going on for me
and get a sense that I'm clear before I go in."
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And it was my saving grace
and it wasn't enough.
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And I went in there and things were fine.
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And it's so bizarre
because I have a clear sense of what I'm going to do
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and as I maintained a clear sense
of what I was going to do
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I heard my mouth doing something else.
And I watched it happen,
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and it was staggering because I did exactly
what I would suggest to people that they don't do.
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Textbook, but you know,
the other side of the textbook.
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And I just watched it happen
and then I watched the result
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and then I just sat there and thought
"and now what am I going to do?"
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and it took about 25 minutes to clean up
from one phrase.
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And you know generally you look at it
objectively it was pretty innocuous.
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You know I didn't say:
"I agree with you we've got to get that bastard."
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You know I said something which simply offered
helpful advice to the mother of the stabbed student.
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Something that would help her:
"Just be a little bit more understanding of other people."
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[Laughs]
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And it's kind of: this hole just opened in the floor,
and I was just falling in…
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I'm sorry?
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What did you say?
And would you have liked to say?
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I said…
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"I think there might be more of a
context to this than you are aware"
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And I meant: "Your son has been terrorizing this guy
for three years
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and just because you think he's perfect doesn't mean
that it doesn't involve you too."
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That's what I meant, that's the energy.
So the words don't sound too drastic
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but the energy behind them, I think contributed.
But the most important thing for me is that
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that's not one of the questions that I give myself.
And now once again I realize
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why I bizarrely stick to only
the questions that are on that sheet. Only.
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it's not that I use them in the didactic form
that I've given you them
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because that's for learning purposes
and for moments where you want absolute clarity
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and you want to go back to this.
This is the clearest way that I found.
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But it helped me remember why I only say those things
or colloquial versions of them
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because that apparently innocuous statement
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completely unbalanced
the power relationship in the circle.
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Completely.
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And what I would have rather have said ?
Nothing at all.
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I definitely needed support and I've rather
that I had sought that support
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by looking at my fingernail
or reaching in my pocket
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or there was a poster of…
we were in the education secretary's office
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to have this circle because it was all
kind of improvised at the last minute
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there was a poster with a
photograph of Paulo Freire on the wall
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so I wish I hadn't looked at Paolo
at that moment.
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Can you tell us how you managed
to get yourself back out of the hole ?
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I went back to sticking to the process
and it just took that long
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before the relationship of trust
was reestablished.
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Avant-Cercle du facilitateur avec Duke
Pratique des Cercles Restauratifs avec Dominic Barter
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At some point in the pre circle I just
check in with Duke: "How's it going ?"
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Duke says "it's fine" and I say:
- "Would you like some support?" - "No I'm good"
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And I don't believe him.
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- Smart.
- Yeah.
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So I just keep on hassling him a little bit
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and I find ways to invite him to sit down with me
and I might do facilitator pre circle
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standing up at the water cooler.
I might do it in the corridor.
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I don't necessarily need the same kind of formality
that I might prefer
10
00:00:37,160 --> 00:00:41,840
if I was receiving people who'd initiated
a restorative process because they have a conflict
11
00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,260
that they want to see happen in
in a restorative circle.
12
00:00:45,260 --> 00:00:49,280
This might be something that we might do in the car
driving home or like I said on the phone.
13
00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:54,010
What's important for me is I want
to remember that the facilitator
14
00:00:54,010 --> 00:00:59,880
is fundamentally a member of the community.
There are not four specific roles in the circle.
15
00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:06,640
There are three: author or authors,
receiver or receivers, and the conflict community.
16
00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:11,480
And Duke is part of the
conflict community.
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00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:19,260
And it's in that capacity that we're meeting.
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00:01:19,260 --> 00:01:23,080
- So how's it going to you?
- Fine.
19
00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:33,120
I'm wondering what's coming up for you
around the circle, the restorative process
20
00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,440
that you're working with at the moment?
21
00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:41,940
I'm noticing I have a hell of lot of stories
and hopelessness
22
00:01:41,940 --> 00:01:48,580
around the author being willing to participate.
23
00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:57,020
Because in in this situation
as in all conflicts
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00:01:57,020 --> 00:02:01,160
but it's very clear that the person who initiated
also was the author
25
00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:07,520
although the way the event was described
that person is a receiver.
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00:02:08,980 --> 00:02:12,820
So when you look at the act
you're looking at them as a receiver
27
00:02:12,820 --> 00:02:16,080
but when you look inside,
you're moved,
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00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:20,740
stimulated by the things that they did.
Is that right?
29
00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:25,740
Yeah. That it has… I lack of a better term…
equal weight
30
00:02:25,740 --> 00:02:30,300
to whatever they're saying
this other person did.
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00:02:30,300 --> 00:02:34,820
And so when the act is framed in that way
I'm telling myself that the other person
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00:02:34,830 --> 00:02:38,920
is never gonna want to participate
given the act framed in this way.
33
00:02:38,920 --> 00:02:40,980
- Yeah.
34
00:02:40,980 --> 00:02:45,880
And what is that idea
that you have about that act ?
35
00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:55,820
And what is the image that you form about the person
or about the act itself when you look at it?
36
00:02:55,829 --> 00:03:02,880
Is there a way to pinpoint something that kind of
that serves as a gateway for emotionally
37
00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,540
what's moving you in relation to this?
38
00:03:07,540 --> 00:03:09,500
I'm not sure what you mean?
39
00:03:09,500 --> 00:03:12,680
I'm wondering if, when you look at the act,
if you see it in a certain way
40
00:03:12,690 --> 00:03:16,500
or when you look at that person
you see them in a certain way
41
00:03:16,500 --> 00:03:19,000
and there's a way to sum that up.
42
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,040
Closed.
43
00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,580
- That's how I see that person.
- Right.
44
00:03:26,580 --> 00:03:35,260
So in pre circle land, that's the act.
It's Duke's act it's the way he's seeing things
45
00:03:35,260 --> 00:03:39,200
it's that singular doorway through which
we're gonna, I'm gonna focus.
46
00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:43,840
Because he said there are lots of things happening
but then there's that word "closed".
47
00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:48,540
And for now that's enough specificity
I don't need anything more
48
00:03:48,540 --> 00:03:52,560
I just wanted that as an anchor
I'll probably just spend the rest of the time
49
00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,360
hanging out with him.
50
00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:07,180
And is that scary to look at that person
and see them in that way?
51
00:04:07,180 --> 00:04:13,240
Well there's a hopelessness in it, you know
52
00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,860
because I have all dreams and visions
of how this process could help
and support them connect differently
53
00:04:17,860 --> 00:04:21,120
and see each other differently
and then I'm telling myself
54
00:04:21,140 --> 00:04:24,120
it's never gonna get off the ground
because they're gonna say:
55
00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,600
"Forget it. I'm not interested."
56
00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,160
Yeah.
57
00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:45,560
And there's sadness at me because
I'm wanting to trust
58
00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:49,620
the process and presence
59
00:04:52,639 --> 00:04:58,599
and also to be open to the fact that
maybe in this situation the circle isn't
60
00:04:58,599 --> 00:05:06,610
the method or whatever
the way that we're going to move forward
61
00:05:12,020 --> 00:05:17,410
so that does start to create
some more openness in me
62
00:05:27,719 --> 00:05:35,099
so it's that I'm seeing because
I've experienced and seen potential
63
00:05:35,100 --> 00:05:39,280
and have dreams of even greater potential
of this process that
64
00:05:39,280 --> 00:05:41,807
I'm wanting it to work for everybody
65
00:05:41,807 --> 00:05:46,160
and so I'm seeing how I've closed down
on the possibility that
66
00:05:46,169 --> 00:05:54,379
in this particular case it's okay
whether they say yes or no.
67
00:05:59,699 --> 00:06:05,479
So "closed" was a good word
Since I was the one who's closed.
68
00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,360
that definitely gives me
way more spaciousness
69
00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,240
in going into meeting
with that person
70
00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:39,360
and more aliveness or excitement
about the possibility
71
00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:46,460
Because now whatever happen is okay.
It's just what it is.
72
00:06:46,460 --> 00:06:48,940
Yeah.
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00:06:59,590 --> 00:07:04,330
And as you look at the next steps that
you're going to take is there anything
74
00:07:04,330 --> 00:07:10,139
that comes up around there
that you can imagine receiving support for?
75
00:07:17,030 --> 00:07:22,310
Well one thing is coming to mind
is just sharing this with my co-facilitator
76
00:07:22,310 --> 00:07:27,200
this experience even just now oh yeah
I'm talking to this checking in with her about it
77
00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,390
and stuff and seeing where
she's at about this
78
00:07:31,390 --> 00:07:36,410
both sharing my experience but then also
seeing where she's at doing the same
79
00:07:36,410 --> 00:07:40,280
that you're doing for me with her
I would do for her
80
00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:45,660
- exchanging it yeah for the both of you
- yeah yeah
81
00:07:45,660 --> 00:07:50,360
Is there a kind of obvious moment
when you might do that?
82
00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:54,220
Yeah we're meeting next week:
83
00:07:54,220 --> 00:07:58,180
we had talked about meeting a little
earlier ahead of the next pre circle
84
00:07:58,180 --> 00:08:04,440
I want to reinforce that and make sure
that that does happen
85
00:08:07,490 --> 00:08:10,090
yeah
86
00:08:13,140 --> 00:08:17,500
- That's all that's coming to mind
- Cool
87
00:08:17,500 --> 00:08:22,860
- Thanks
- All right thank you.
88
00:08:22,860 --> 00:08:31,400
Wow that was hard work!
[Laughs]
89
00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:35,419
I'm joking about
how little is necessary to be able
90
00:08:35,420 --> 00:08:39,980
to support someone in terms of,
you know, words or thinking.
91
00:08:39,980 --> 00:08:47,060
…
92
00:08:47,060 --> 00:08:53,460
So you knew it wouldn't work here
because everyone knows
93
00:08:53,460 --> 00:08:57,800
If you break it down, it does look,
I wonder if you were able to track it,
94
00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,720
it does look pretty much like a pre circle
95
00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:05,510
there's a particular point of entry
there's the listening as you look forward
96
00:09:05,510 --> 00:09:09,620
to the processes or any other things
that you think might come up for you
97
00:09:09,620 --> 00:09:13,640
is going over the process
like we do with the participants
98
00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:18,300
I didn't need to ask who might be able
to support you with that piece
99
00:09:18,300 --> 00:09:21,760
that might come up in the future
because he already answered that question
100
00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:27,560
but if he hadn't, if he'd said: "yeah, it's not
such a big deal but I'm kind of nervous
101
00:09:27,560 --> 00:09:32,440
about what's going to happen with the
other pre circle after I'm with the author"
102
00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,330
Then I would have said:
"So is there anyone around who might be able
103
00:09:35,330 --> 00:09:39,080
to support you with that?"
Which is the equivalent of: "who else needs to be there?"
104
00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:44,510
I'm checking in with the folks
and then, you know, "are we done?"
105
00:09:44,510 --> 00:09:49,600
"Is that okay?" as a way of saying:
"are we ready to move on?"
106
00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:56,680
So that is still my guide
but I'm not particularly worried about the questions
107
00:09:56,680 --> 00:10:00,000
as specific ways to manifest it
I just have that as a guide in my head.
108
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,360
those are the pieces that I more or less
want to make sure that we cover.
109
00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:09,700
In a situation in which someone is giving me
a far more verbally explicit description
110
00:10:09,700 --> 00:10:14,200
of what the other person has done wrong
or what they themselves are lacking
111
00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:19,720
in order to be able to facilitate
or what a terrible situation, one unresolvable dilemma,
112
00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:24,380
there being presented within the circle,
then one of the things that I'll do,
113
00:10:24,380 --> 00:10:31,020
is I'll more specifically verbalize to them
the way in which I'm hearing them speak
114
00:10:31,020 --> 00:10:33,420
because I want to check with them
115
00:10:33,420 --> 00:10:37,020
if I'm really hearing them accurately
because the distance between
116
00:10:37,020 --> 00:10:41,340
the words they're using
and the dictionary meaning of those words
117
00:10:41,340 --> 00:10:46,320
and the meaning that I'm receiving is greater
than it was just now.
118
00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:51,260
Duke's way of expressing himself was pretty close
to what I was hearing.
119
00:10:51,260 --> 00:10:56,860
But when someone says: "Oh, god, another pre circle today!
It's the same bloody family again!
120
00:10:56,860 --> 00:11:01,740
They never learn! Complete disaster,
I don't know why I bother."
121
00:11:01,740 --> 00:11:07,960
There's a larger gap between
the dictionary meaning of the words they're using
122
00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,540
and what it is that I'm hearing.
123
00:11:11,540 --> 00:11:17,620
Do you use your NVC translation skills
to put that in termes of feelings and needs?
124
00:11:17,620 --> 00:11:22,440
All the time as a facilitator
I'm tracking meaning.
125
00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,360
That's my primary activity.
It's to track meaning.
126
00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:30,900
So in this case I'm listening to that meaning arrive.
127
00:11:30,900 --> 00:11:36,340
I get the wrapping
but what I'm really interested in, is the present inside
128
00:11:36,340 --> 00:11:40,520
so the words are the wrapping
the concepts are the wrapping
129
00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:47,560
but what's inside if that makes sense to you,
we can describe in terms of needs that are universal
130
00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:50,620
if that doesn't make sense to you
you describe it in other terms.
131
00:11:50,630 --> 00:11:54,350
Most of the people I work with don't have NVC
as a reference point
132
00:11:54,350 --> 00:11:57,140
they have Christianity or they have
something else.
133
00:11:57,140 --> 00:12:00,640
So they'll find a different way
to describe exactly the same thing
134
00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:05,920
as far as I can see, works just as well.
NVC is just my particular doorway in.
135
00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:13,400
So I'll find a way to verbalize what I'm hearing
so that I can check with them if my hearing is accurate.
136
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,890
Does anyone else
got any comments or observations
137
00:12:15,890 --> 00:12:20,640
that they'd like to share about
what they saw just now with me and Duke?
138
00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:27,040
I was really appreciating the quality of listening
and I remember how effective it was
139
00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:32,460
one of the times, I received that kind of listening support
and I asked actively for it, in every case.
140
00:12:32,460 --> 00:12:39,260
And one time when I couldn't find it
how I walked into the RC was completely different.
141
00:12:39,260 --> 00:12:41,060
Yeah.
142
00:12:41,060 --> 00:12:47,180
I didn't get it the other day, it's about three weeks now,
I got a phone call late at night from a judge saying:
143
00:12:47,180 --> 00:12:52,840
"I've just been rung by the secretary of Education"
of the state in which he lives.
144
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:58,700
A student has just stabbed another student in a school
and they want you to be there by the morning."
145
00:12:58,700 --> 00:13:03,400
So I packed my bag,
woke up at 5:00, flew there,
146
00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:08,280
then drove quite a long way inland
to get to this small city
147
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:15,140
and 10 hours of pre-circle
just one after the other
148
00:13:15,140 --> 00:13:23,280
and for the next morning, ready for the first circle
and I was just leaving the place that I'd slept in
149
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:28,920
to get ready for the day, when I realized
that I hadn't checked in with anybody
150
00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,340
because it was just one after the other
one after the other
151
00:13:32,340 --> 00:13:36,380
to get into the prison to be able
to meet with the young man
152
00:13:36,380 --> 00:13:42,680
who'd stabbed his colleague was complicated
the judge didn't want to allow it he was on holiday…
153
00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:47,040
you know, there were things that would…
hoops that we needed to jump through
154
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,600
and then when I got there and found out
that he hadn't seen his parents for a week
155
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:55,240
I was the first person who'd spoken to him
then I was like emotionally impacted as well
156
00:13:55,240 --> 00:14:00,800
and while all these things were going on
and very little sleep, I forgot to do that.
157
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:05,160
But someone had driven me there
and luckily that person had participated
158
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,760
in a training a couple of years earlier
so I kind of grabbed her over breakfast
159
00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,200
and I said: "Could you…
just five minutes could we spend?
160
00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,530
You know, even if we're late,
I'd spent five minutes together,
161
00:14:15,530 --> 00:14:20,400
I'd just like to tell you what's going on for me
and get a sense that I'm clear before I go in."
162
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:26,140
And it was my saving grace
and it wasn't enough.
163
00:14:26,140 --> 00:14:29,320
And I went in there and things were fine.
164
00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:34,220
And it's so bizarre
because I have a clear sense of what I'm going to do
165
00:14:34,220 --> 00:14:37,420
and as I maintained a clear sense
of what I was going to do
166
00:14:37,420 --> 00:14:43,560
I heard my mouth doing something else.
And I watched it happen,
167
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:49,660
and it was staggering because I did exactly
what I would suggest to people that they don't do.
168
00:14:49,660 --> 00:14:53,800
Textbook, but you know,
the other side of the textbook.
169
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,940
And I just watched it happen
and then I watched the result
170
00:14:57,940 --> 00:15:01,580
and then I just sat there and thought
"and now what am I going to do?"
171
00:15:01,580 --> 00:15:08,980
and it took about 25 minutes to clean up
from one phrase.
172
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:14,260
And you know generally you look at it
objectively it was pretty innocuous.
173
00:15:14,260 --> 00:15:19,080
You know I didn't say:
"I agree with you we've got to get that bastard."
174
00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:27,560
You know I said something which simply offered
helpful advice to the mother of the stabbed student.
175
00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:34,200
Something that would help her:
"Just be a little bit more understanding of other people."
176
00:15:35,220 --> 00:15:37,220
[Laughs]
177
00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:44,060
And it's kind of: this hole just opened in the floor,
and I was just falling in…
178
00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:48,600
I'm sorry?
179
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,360
What did you say?
And would you have liked to say?
180
00:16:00,380 --> 00:16:03,420
I said…
181
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:10,480
"I think there might be more of a
context to this than you are aware"
182
00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:16,840
And I meant: "Your son has been terrorizing this guy
for three years
183
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:21,540
and just because you think he's perfect doesn't mean
that it doesn't involve you too."
184
00:16:21,540 --> 00:16:27,660
That's what I meant, that's the energy.
So the words don't sound too drastic
185
00:16:27,660 --> 00:16:32,840
but the energy behind them, I think contributed.
But the most important thing for me is that
186
00:16:32,850 --> 00:16:39,420
that's not one of the questions that I give myself.
And now once again I realize
187
00:16:39,420 --> 00:16:46,910
why I bizarrely stick to only
the questions that are on that sheet. Only.
188
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,680
it's not that I use them in the didactic form
that I've given you them
189
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:56,100
because that's for learning purposes
and for moments where you want absolute clarity
190
00:16:56,100 --> 00:17:01,820
and you want to go back to this.
This is the clearest way that I found.
191
00:17:01,820 --> 00:17:08,180
But it helped me remember why I only say those things
or colloquial versions of them
192
00:17:08,180 --> 00:17:12,060
because that apparently innocuous statement
193
00:17:12,060 --> 00:17:16,920
completely unbalanced
the power relationship in the circle.
194
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,340
Completely.
195
00:17:19,940 --> 00:17:24,480
And what I would have rather have said ?
Nothing at all.
196
00:17:26,740 --> 00:17:31,320
I definitely needed support and I've rather
that I had sought that support
197
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,500
by looking at my fingernail
or reaching in my pocket
198
00:17:35,500 --> 00:17:41,660
or there was a poster of…
we were in the education secretary's office
199
00:17:41,660 --> 00:17:45,340
to have this circle because it was all
kind of improvised at the last minute
200
00:17:45,340 --> 00:17:49,040
there was a poster with a
photograph of Paulo Freire on the wall
201
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:53,840
so I wish I hadn't looked at Paolo
at that moment.
202
00:17:54,160 --> 00:18:00,600
Can you tell us how you managed
to get yourself back out of the hole ?
203
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,600
I went back to sticking to the process
and it just took that long
204
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:09,720
before the relationship of trust
was reestablished.
